My cat, Sparky, is diabetic. After a terrible time with ketoacidosis and four days in the animal hospital, she began doing very well on Lantus and has for about the past four months. Everything was going great, and then her abdomen began to swell, and she became very large and bloated. I took her to the vet today, and he suspects it is feline infectious peritonitus (FIP). My poor Sparky is very lethargic and depressed, will only eat a small amount, can't rest comfortably because of the size of her belly, and is making this heart wrenching crying sound that has me in tears.
The vet took fluid samples from her abdomen to run two tests - one to see if this might actually be a bacterial infection that can be treated with antibiotics, and a second test to see if she has been exposed to the FIP virus. The second test will not be a definitive diagnosis of FIP but will tell if she has been exposed. This is passed from cat to cat through feces, but Sparky has always been my only cat and has always been indoors. I have read that it's rare for a cat with that lifestyle to develope FIP. It could be that she was exposed to the virus when she was a kitten, before I adopted her, or she was exposed in the animal hospital.
I will have the results of the bacterial test in a few days, but the FIP test not until Monday at the earliest. I don't know what to do. Her diabetes was totally under control and she was doing so well, and now this!
What should I do? I can't let her suffer. If the bacterial test comes back negative I'm faced with deciding whether or not to have her put to sleep. I would like to know the results of the FIP test before I make that choice, but is it right to put her through two to four more days of suffering? What if I have her put to sleep and then the FIP test comes back negative? The vet said if it's FIP then she would probably not live more than two weeks, but fluid will continue to accumulate in her abdomen, put pressure on her lungs, make it hard for her to breath. The only possibility other than FIP is a tumor, which might or might not be operable. I am ashamed to say that I don't have the money to have surgery done.
I don't know what to do. How do you decide what to do?
I apologize that this is so long. Can someone please give me some advice?
Cameron
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Feline Infectious Peritonitis |
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Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by camdavis58 on Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:35 am
- camdavis58
- Posts: 6 | Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:29 am
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by Daveyo on Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:10 am
Hi Cameron
You can definitely rule out a tumor as it does not grow that fast. What the vet has to do is check to see if your cat has the wet or dry version FIPV If the dry version, Atabrine can cure, and if the wet version you need quinine for the rest of its life. I have the test procedure at my site.
Even though my site is dedicated to dogs, I do have topics to cover this aspect involving a cat and it is at my site known as caninedistempercure dot com and in there you will find cat topics and sections to cover your case. In the meantime you best get the VET to drain out that fluid buildup or that cat will indeed die. I cannot figure out why the vet is not doing it now!!!!
hope to see you there
Daveyo
You can definitely rule out a tumor as it does not grow that fast. What the vet has to do is check to see if your cat has the wet or dry version FIPV If the dry version, Atabrine can cure, and if the wet version you need quinine for the rest of its life. I have the test procedure at my site.
Even though my site is dedicated to dogs, I do have topics to cover this aspect involving a cat and it is at my site known as caninedistempercure dot com and in there you will find cat topics and sections to cover your case. In the meantime you best get the VET to drain out that fluid buildup or that cat will indeed die. I cannot figure out why the vet is not doing it now!!!!
hope to see you there
Daveyo
- Daveyo
- Posts: 851 | Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:16 am | Location: Around the World
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by Daveyo on Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:15 am
Hi again;
Nothing to apologise about since mine is longer than yours ehhh hehehehehee.
Alright here is some data for you now>>
Ok here it is. I put it down in laymans terms rather than the scientific terms lest you not understand.
First it is absolutely essential to find out which of the two virus symptoms the cat has >>>either the Wet Form or the Dry Form. From there the rest is explained below. So remember this part OK. Advise other cat owners that they have to get the right diagnosis as ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE, before giving the medications!!!!!!!
FIP is a genetic change of a Virus in the gut of cats called Corona Virus. Most cats carry Corona virus in their intestines. About 80 %. So, about 6 % of those undergo a change in the genetics of the virus that makes it attack the macrophages of the abdomen instead. NOT CONTAGIOUS AT THIS PHASE. Unless the virus is transferred by syringe. So, in the macrophage cell in the abdomen it begins to make """antibodies and massive amounts of fibrin""" against this virus of which most drugs cannot reach the virus because it is now intracellular. Remember we talked about this in distemper and it is posted here.
The virus FIP in the macrophage now starts to make mountains of antibody and a protein(fibrin) that plugs up small capillaries and makes them leak. This is the classic phase of the disease very thick types of serum (protein,globulin,fibrin) in the abdomen. They almost look pregnant. Can happen in the chest as well. These cats all die. Called the wet form.
Then there is the dry form. Very high total protein and globulin. Sometimes this is all that is seen. These cats suffer from vascular failure in the various organs of the body. The dry form.
Wet form can be controlled using Quinine. Not cured--> CONTROLLED!!!. Once the quinine is discontinued the disease progresses to death.
The dry form which is what we saw in Calif most, is controlled with Atabrine. 50 mg per cat per day. We found that It in some way is causing the macrophages to stop doing what they do. These cats can recover to a cure. Personally have seen several. Both drugs do the same thing to the macrophage but one does it permanently and the other temporarily. Antimalarial drugs.
They seem to turn of the macrophages ability to manufacture fibrin.( I think) The dry form untreated also progresses to death. Can be fast or slow.
Biggest problem with either virus is diagnosis. Can tell if a cat has Corona but cannot tell if the virus is corona or FiP Both have the same serologic test signature. Can be high l/16000 or low less than 1/400. This is usually the way the test comes back less than 1/400. Means not sick.
Now you can have a virus amplification done of the cells in the abdomen and verify the FIP or autopsy also can tell because all the organs in the abdomen are covered in Fibrin. A clotting material. That which plugs up the vessels etc. Nasty disease.
Basically what this means the animal's veins or pathways of blood get plugged up depriving the nutrients to sustain the main functions of the animal. This kind of disease is very difficult itself to stop but at least we found two verified methods that works.
Not a cytokine storm of sorts but a reverse process to stop the massive antibody buildup. What happens is the virus gets shield and the T response is rendered useless because the antibodies surrounds the virus setting up a wall. Again this is DNA coding of the virus that is able to control the antibodies to go against its main threat the T cell. The autoimmune system wants it gone but lost control of its own forces which sort of became a traitor to the system itself. Another way of saying the antibodies declared a mutiny of sorts.
In the case of Distemper, the virus itself causes the T cell response to destroy its own good cells and avoids the attack direct. Completely opposite of what FIPV does. The autoimmune system loses control of the T cell but controls the antibodies.
This is the best way I can put it. No one was able to control the T cell medically until I made that discovery myself.
In the case of a cat, it is controlling antibodies which is the problem and not T cell. Another description is the immune system of the cat went haywire caused by the virus building up its shields against the T -cell.
This is like going into a deep underground bunker and no shell can touch you because you got the earth to shield you and you got the bunker itself to shield you. Only way is a direct hit. Well the Antimalarial drugs Atabrine and Quinine seem to stop the antibodies itself and gives the T cell response a chance to wipe out the virus. This is a slow normal body process and no push or major cytokine storm involved. The drug Atabrine and Quinine itself gives the push for T cell response itself.
Doc and Daveyo
Nothing to apologise about since mine is longer than yours ehhh hehehehehee.
Alright here is some data for you now>>
Ok here it is. I put it down in laymans terms rather than the scientific terms lest you not understand.
First it is absolutely essential to find out which of the two virus symptoms the cat has >>>either the Wet Form or the Dry Form. From there the rest is explained below. So remember this part OK. Advise other cat owners that they have to get the right diagnosis as ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE, before giving the medications!!!!!!!
FIP is a genetic change of a Virus in the gut of cats called Corona Virus. Most cats carry Corona virus in their intestines. About 80 %. So, about 6 % of those undergo a change in the genetics of the virus that makes it attack the macrophages of the abdomen instead. NOT CONTAGIOUS AT THIS PHASE. Unless the virus is transferred by syringe. So, in the macrophage cell in the abdomen it begins to make """antibodies and massive amounts of fibrin""" against this virus of which most drugs cannot reach the virus because it is now intracellular. Remember we talked about this in distemper and it is posted here.
The virus FIP in the macrophage now starts to make mountains of antibody and a protein(fibrin) that plugs up small capillaries and makes them leak. This is the classic phase of the disease very thick types of serum (protein,globulin,fibrin) in the abdomen. They almost look pregnant. Can happen in the chest as well. These cats all die. Called the wet form.
Then there is the dry form. Very high total protein and globulin. Sometimes this is all that is seen. These cats suffer from vascular failure in the various organs of the body. The dry form.
Wet form can be controlled using Quinine. Not cured--> CONTROLLED!!!. Once the quinine is discontinued the disease progresses to death.
The dry form which is what we saw in Calif most, is controlled with Atabrine. 50 mg per cat per day. We found that It in some way is causing the macrophages to stop doing what they do. These cats can recover to a cure. Personally have seen several. Both drugs do the same thing to the macrophage but one does it permanently and the other temporarily. Antimalarial drugs.
They seem to turn of the macrophages ability to manufacture fibrin.( I think) The dry form untreated also progresses to death. Can be fast or slow.
Biggest problem with either virus is diagnosis. Can tell if a cat has Corona but cannot tell if the virus is corona or FiP Both have the same serologic test signature. Can be high l/16000 or low less than 1/400. This is usually the way the test comes back less than 1/400. Means not sick.
Now you can have a virus amplification done of the cells in the abdomen and verify the FIP or autopsy also can tell because all the organs in the abdomen are covered in Fibrin. A clotting material. That which plugs up the vessels etc. Nasty disease.
Basically what this means the animal's veins or pathways of blood get plugged up depriving the nutrients to sustain the main functions of the animal. This kind of disease is very difficult itself to stop but at least we found two verified methods that works.
Not a cytokine storm of sorts but a reverse process to stop the massive antibody buildup. What happens is the virus gets shield and the T response is rendered useless because the antibodies surrounds the virus setting up a wall. Again this is DNA coding of the virus that is able to control the antibodies to go against its main threat the T cell. The autoimmune system wants it gone but lost control of its own forces which sort of became a traitor to the system itself. Another way of saying the antibodies declared a mutiny of sorts.
In the case of Distemper, the virus itself causes the T cell response to destroy its own good cells and avoids the attack direct. Completely opposite of what FIPV does. The autoimmune system loses control of the T cell but controls the antibodies.
This is the best way I can put it. No one was able to control the T cell medically until I made that discovery myself.
In the case of a cat, it is controlling antibodies which is the problem and not T cell. Another description is the immune system of the cat went haywire caused by the virus building up its shields against the T -cell.
This is like going into a deep underground bunker and no shell can touch you because you got the earth to shield you and you got the bunker itself to shield you. Only way is a direct hit. Well the Antimalarial drugs Atabrine and Quinine seem to stop the antibodies itself and gives the T cell response a chance to wipe out the virus. This is a slow normal body process and no push or major cytokine storm involved. The drug Atabrine and Quinine itself gives the push for T cell response itself.
Doc and Daveyo
- Daveyo
- Posts: 851 | Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:16 am | Location: Around the World
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by camdavis58 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:36 am
My cat has the wet version. Her belly is terribly swollen with fluid. The vet did not mention anything about quinine. He just said this is terminal. I will be calling him as soon as his office opens to ask for/demand quinine and also to have the fluid drained. I don't know what I'll do if the vet won't consider quinine. What is the correct does for a cat? I've found plenty of places online where I can buy it. If I get the fluid drained perhaps that will buy some time to obtain the quinine, even if I have to undertake this treatment regimen myself without vet support. I understand it's not a cure. But, my cat also has diabetes and I can't cure that. But, it has been totally under control with insulin injections twice per day.
So :
-is there any problem giving quinine to a diabetic cat on Lantus (insulin)
-what dose quinine should be given and how often?
[quote="Daveyo"]Hi Cameron
You can definitely rule out a tumor as it does not grow that fast. What the vet has to do is check to see if your cat has the wet or dry version FIPV If the dry version, Atabrine can cure, and if the wet version you need quinine for the rest of its life. I have the test procedure at my site.
Even though my site is dedicated to dogs, I do have topics to cover this aspect involving a cat and it is at my site known as caninedistempercure dot com and in there you will find cat topics and sections to cover your case. In the meantime you best get the VET to drain out that fluid buildup or that cat will indeed die. I cannot figure out why the vet is not doing it now!!!!
hope to see you there
Daveyo[/quote]
So :
-is there any problem giving quinine to a diabetic cat on Lantus (insulin)
-what dose quinine should be given and how often?
[quote="Daveyo"]Hi Cameron
You can definitely rule out a tumor as it does not grow that fast. What the vet has to do is check to see if your cat has the wet or dry version FIPV If the dry version, Atabrine can cure, and if the wet version you need quinine for the rest of its life. I have the test procedure at my site.
Even though my site is dedicated to dogs, I do have topics to cover this aspect involving a cat and it is at my site known as caninedistempercure dot com and in there you will find cat topics and sections to cover your case. In the meantime you best get the VET to drain out that fluid buildup or that cat will indeed die. I cannot figure out why the vet is not doing it now!!!!
hope to see you there
Daveyo[/quote]
- camdavis58
- Posts: 6 | Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:29 am
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by Daveyo on Thu Aug 13, 2009 9:26 am
Hi Cam
You have to get to my site and register yourself in and I also posted here what the VET needs to do in the meantime. The amounts are different for every cat and the stage of the disease also plays a role too. Those test results determine the proper amounts you need of quinine. Also since you not have much funds, I have at my site the resources for you to get funds to get your cat treated. The rest is up to you.
Hope to see you there.
Daveyo
You have to get to my site and register yourself in and I also posted here what the VET needs to do in the meantime. The amounts are different for every cat and the stage of the disease also plays a role too. Those test results determine the proper amounts you need of quinine. Also since you not have much funds, I have at my site the resources for you to get funds to get your cat treated. The rest is up to you.
Hope to see you there.
Daveyo
- Daveyo
- Posts: 851 | Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:16 am | Location: Around the World
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by camdavis58 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 10:51 am
Do you mean you posted the info for the vet somewhere on this web site? I've searched and searched and I can't find it. Is it here or on caninedistempercure.com?? Sorry, but I'm feeling really desperate and my cat is getting worse. I called the vet and he said he all cats with the wet form die, but he would look at your information if I can find it. Please respond as soon as you can or approve my registration at your web site so I can log in there, if that is where the information is posted. Thanks.
Cameron Davis
[quote="Daveyo"]Hi Cam
You have to get to my site and register yourself in and I also posted here what the VET needs to do in the meantime. The amounts are different for every cat and the stage of the disease also plays a role too. Those test results determine the proper amounts you need of quinine. Also since you not have much funds, I have at my site the resources for you to get funds to get your cat treated. The rest is up to you.
Hope to see you there.
Daveyo[/quote]
Cameron Davis
[quote="Daveyo"]Hi Cam
You have to get to my site and register yourself in and I also posted here what the VET needs to do in the meantime. The amounts are different for every cat and the stage of the disease also plays a role too. Those test results determine the proper amounts you need of quinine. Also since you not have much funds, I have at my site the resources for you to get funds to get your cat treated. The rest is up to you.
Hope to see you there.
Daveyo[/quote]
- camdavis58
- Posts: 6 | Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:29 am
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by camdavis58 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 11:52 am
I apologize for emailing you so much, but I need some more info. My vet is willing to prescribe quinine, and there is a pharmacy in town where he called in a prescription for me. I will have to cut the tablets to make 100mg doses. My understanding is that 100mg per day per life is the correct does. The vet will not drain the fluid. He says the abdomen will fill up again and cause my cat to dehydrate. He said if the quinine works, the fluid now in the abdomen will be reabsorbed. It the quinine does not work I should have my cat put to sleep when she is no longer able to get up and walk around. I would appreciate your opinion on the 100mg dose, the fact that the fluid will not be drained, and the vet's opinion of when I should decide to euthanize. I'm going out now to get the quinine and will give her the first dose within the hour. I hope I'm not making her suffer more. But, if there is something I can do to save her with a decent quality of life I have to try. Thanks.
Cameron Davis
[quote="camdavis58"]Do you mean you posted the info for the vet somewhere on this web site? I've searched and searched and I can't find it. Is it here or on caninedistempercure.com?? Sorry, but I'm feeling really desperate and my cat is getting worse. I called the vet and he said he all cats with the wet form die, but he would look at your information if I can find it. Please respond as soon as you can or approve my registration at your web site so I can log in there, if that is where the information is posted. Thanks.
Cameron Davis
[quote="Daveyo"]Hi Cam
You have to get to my site and register yourself in and I also posted here what the VET needs to do in the meantime. The amounts are different for every cat and the stage of the disease also plays a role too. Those test results determine the proper amounts you need of quinine. Also since you not have much funds, I have at my site the resources for you to get funds to get your cat treated. The rest is up to you.
Hope to see you there.
Daveyo[/quote][/quote]
Cameron Davis
[quote="camdavis58"]Do you mean you posted the info for the vet somewhere on this web site? I've searched and searched and I can't find it. Is it here or on caninedistempercure.com?? Sorry, but I'm feeling really desperate and my cat is getting worse. I called the vet and he said he all cats with the wet form die, but he would look at your information if I can find it. Please respond as soon as you can or approve my registration at your web site so I can log in there, if that is where the information is posted. Thanks.
Cameron Davis
[quote="Daveyo"]Hi Cam
You have to get to my site and register yourself in and I also posted here what the VET needs to do in the meantime. The amounts are different for every cat and the stage of the disease also plays a role too. Those test results determine the proper amounts you need of quinine. Also since you not have much funds, I have at my site the resources for you to get funds to get your cat treated. The rest is up to you.
Hope to see you there.
Daveyo[/quote][/quote]
- camdavis58
- Posts: 6 | Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:29 am
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by Daveyo on Thu Aug 13, 2009 12:34 pm
Hi Cam
Did you not see the post on this thread???? Hmmm ok will do it again or go to my site and you can see it there. You are already approved.
Daveyo
Did you not see the post on this thread???? Hmmm ok will do it again or go to my site and you can see it there. You are already approved.
Daveyo
- Daveyo
- Posts: 851 | Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:16 am | Location: Around the World
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by camdavis58 on Thu Aug 13, 2009 2:34 pm
Hello - I'm sorry to be bothering you again. I have read your information. I have a source for quinine. My cat is in the late stages of this illness. Her belly began swelling about two weeks ago. Is there much chance the quinine will help? Does the quinine start working right away or does it have to be in her system for a number of days before it is able to start having an effect and my cat's health starts to improve? Because she is in the end stage of the illness, I suspect she does not have alot of time to wait for the quinine to start working. So, if it's likely she will die before the quinine can do any good, I'm thinking I should end her suffering now and have her put to sleep. Please help me with this by giving me your opinions. Thanks. I appreciate you help very much.
Cameron Davis
[quote="Daveyo"]Hi Cam
Did you not see the post on this thread???? Hmmm ok will do it again or go to my site and you can see it there. You are already approved.
Daveyo[/quote]
Cameron Davis
[quote="Daveyo"]Hi Cam
Did you not see the post on this thread???? Hmmm ok will do it again or go to my site and you can see it there. You are already approved.
Daveyo[/quote]
- camdavis58
- Posts: 6 | Joined: Wed Aug 12, 2009 1:29 am
Re: Need help-cat diagnosed with FIP today
by Daveyo on Thu Aug 13, 2009 6:02 pm
Hi Cam
Well, I cannot say one way or the other. Impossible but sometimes a cat can pull thru. It will take a few days for the quinine to take effect because it has to break down that barrier of antibodies that has built up which is preventing the T-cells from getting rid of it.
The antibodies are plugging everything up. Only hope is keep draining that fluid build up and hope the quinine gets a foothold on it. Dr. sears says give 100mg every 24 hours. This stuff is very strong and its bitter so cloak it like wrap a piece of meat over it. OK
I say go for it, as you now have nothing to lose but to maybe save your cat
Let me know one way or the other. This is my opinion.
Daveyo
Well, I cannot say one way or the other. Impossible but sometimes a cat can pull thru. It will take a few days for the quinine to take effect because it has to break down that barrier of antibodies that has built up which is preventing the T-cells from getting rid of it.
The antibodies are plugging everything up. Only hope is keep draining that fluid build up and hope the quinine gets a foothold on it. Dr. sears says give 100mg every 24 hours. This stuff is very strong and its bitter so cloak it like wrap a piece of meat over it. OK
I say go for it, as you now have nothing to lose but to maybe save your cat
Let me know one way or the other. This is my opinion.
Daveyo
- Daveyo
- Posts: 851 | Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2007 7:16 am | Location: Around the World
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