Feline Infectious Peritonitis

[stefcat]

if find this subject very interesting, allthough i am also having a hard time with noone reporting back on this board with trying or not trying this atabrine and with results, positive or negative. Or at least reporting back that it is virtually impossible to get the medicine at all.

also i am wondering, on the internet atabrine and quinacrine are said to be the same medicine, and only atabrine being the brand-name here.

so why is it said here to be 2 different medicine used for treating dry and wet fip?

also i noticed atabrine in the usa being also prescribed as a medicine for giardiasis in pets, which would make it in my opinion not a very hard medicine to get for vet?


gr.

stef.

[Daveyo]

Hi Aimee

Sorry for not responding until now. Been very busy with so many other things. So I came across your thread here and this one needs a response.

According to my statement of what I wrote here was general. I know what you are saying, and I (my fault) for not being so specific. Antibiotics is for bacteria and vaccine is for virus. We in the medical community know this quite well, yet a lot of others don't.

The example I gave like the flu. (remember how the public perceives things which is much different ok) For antibiotics yes it will have a small effect at first but it does take 14 days for it to have any real effect to protect you and give your immune system the antibodies needed to fight off the bacterial infection. It will be slow at first and it takes time. I gave an example of flu as a general pick, which if one is already sick with the flu and you go to a Doctor and he prescribes you meds, it will take 14 days for your body to build up a sufficient amount to defend against the attack which keeps you from getting sick. (which is their thinking and they are dead wrong) During that process it slowly builds up, and in the meantime your still having that bout of the flu or even the head cold. Right or wrong. So why the Doctors issue antibiotics knowing it is a virus and not bacteria?? Ask them. I do not prescribe such antibiotics for viral attacks.

Vaccine on the other hand takes care of viral means. Distemper is a virus, Swine flu is basically a virus, Sars is a virus the bird flu is a virus and so on. Well, we got the distemper virus and now its curable using both a vaccine and serum. Sars they came up with a vaccine to stop that too. The bird flu is still ongoing, and the Swine flu is current. It behooves me to see, and you and I both know full well Swine is a virus, they still issue out Tamiflu. go figure.

There has been a big hoopala saying that Tamiflu is one of the best. I will not say one or the other but it is indeed a very strong antibiotic. Keep in mind antibiotics tend to be very specific and only have a limitation to what it works best on. Vaccine can have a broad base capability.

A vaccine meant for chickens for example is bird based and was developed to cure chickens. Well no one ever thought to try out a bird base vaccine against measles all these years. Turns out that it works and cures against Distemper which by the way is measles. If you look at MS it is also a measles form. NDV also cures certain forms of stomach cancer. Progress is slowly coming around about this NDV and it is showing it can cure a wider base of viruses than for what it is specifically made for.

Kudos to the one who discovered NDV.

Also what no one knew and it was hands off for many years is the treatment to cure the CNS when the virus such as Distemper gets in via the lung route. Ok now we have a virus inside the CNS, the same as those having MS. What's happening inside there. Destruction and eventually it will kill.

I was the very first person to ever make an attempt to cure Distemper in the CNS. I did it on live dogs outside of a lab, with no vivo or vitro data. Why, because there was no other data available at the time of 2007. I also knew it can go both ways, either it kills the animal or it works. Nothing left to go on other than the little bit of information gleened from a person who used his recall going back 40 plus years from another Doctor who did a off shoot experiment in some basement. Yep a basement inside the university.

Turns out it worked. Today both dogs are doing fine and they are completely cured of the disease as well as a few others ever since and there is medical data on it now. What I did not expect was I got an additional bonus out of the attempt. I discovered on how to control the auto immune system, in getting the deadly C4-T cells to stop attacking its own good cells and reversing it and getting it to attack the virus instead, and geting the auto immune system to restore itself back to normal mode.

How did this work, I don't know because to do so I would have to do many autopsies and I will not do this to my dogs. The first test prior to doing the tap confirmed the disease was indeed present inside the CNS from Antech Labs. The tap was done using NDV. The third test was another tap and sent out to Antech Labs. No virus present which confirms the virus got wiped out.

The NDV does not repair the Myelin or Schwaan cells. It merely assists and stimulates the Stem cells inside the animal to repair the residual damage caused by Distemper Virus.

Recent developments from a lab in California now can inject the stem cells into the spaces where the lesions are and it repairs this damage. The Mayo clinic has come up with a generic form of antibodies which speed up the repair of Myelin and Schwaan cells.

Are we to be doubted. Ok then doubt, and not believe. Call me a voodoo doctor if you wish, call Dr. Sears a voodoo doctor if you wish, the same to the labs in California and to the Mayo Clinic.

I am in touch with all those outfits and those people.

I know you are medically inclined and I can see that. But you also contradict yourself as well. The 14 days I point out is how the immune system builds up to obtain full strength regarding antibiotics. For Vaccines it takes 14 to 21 days to reach full strength. The Dx given by doctors is for max a week. Then you already know Antibiotics is for bacterial means, and vaccine is for viral means, yet you did attack yourself, and even mentioned that the physicians still prescribe antibiotics for a viral infection.

So ask yourself why the Doctors continue to do it???? Knowing full well of its purposes.

That is why I said the public perception in their views is different. You forgot yourself too, which is OK. No problem.

The interferon process in making the serum is to make cytokines and not antibodies. That is why it is different. The cytokines is what does the trick in wiping out a virus so quickly and the extraction of such is timed based because cytokines made at various hours tend to be specific in the sero for certain diseases.

So it just happens to turn out that the Dx to make the Serum against Distemper the extraction period resides within a certain time frame and within that certain hour. Viola, nice to discover that one.

Anyway, I thought to mention all this and at least I responded for you.

Daveyo

[stefcat]

good to hear this, watching this forum with interest.

in the mean time i still am desperate to know that if Atrabrine is used what the normal dose would be for a 3-5 kg cat in order for it to work.
i can find nothing about this on the net and also nothing about it on this forum.


one of my cats died of fip and i am trying to think ahead in case something like this will ever happen again, so i know what direction to think in and at least do something.

[Daveyo]

Hi Stefcat

I hope you have the right diagnosis pertaining to the dry version. Ok what I will do is go to my medical journals and get the Dx out for you. Give me a small amount of time and I will report back here to you.

My condolences to you and to your former cat. Good for you to think ahead, but remember the real key to all this is Early Detection. If you get it in the late stages it is very hard to save such cat. Just so you know and understand it well. So what I will do first for you is put all this down and I want you to read it carefully and understand just what really happens to the cat when they get this disease so it can help you get that early detection. OK

Here it is>

First it is absolutely essential to find out which of the two virus symptoms the cat has >>>either the Wet Form or the Dry Form. From there the rest is explained below. So remember this part OK. Advise other cat owners that they have to get the right diagnosis as ACCURATE AS POSSIBLE, before giving the medications!!!!!!!

FIP is a genetic change of a Virus in the gut of cats called Corona Virus. Most cats carry Corona virus in their intestines. About 80 %. So, about 6 % of those undergo a change in the genetics of the virus that makes it attack the macrophages of the abdomen instead. NOT CONTAGIOUS AT THIS PHASE. Unless the virus is transferred by syringe. So, in the macrophage cell in the abdomen it begins to make """antibodies and massive amounts of fibrin""" against this virus of which most drugs cannot reach the virus because it is now intracellular. Remember we talked about this in distemper and it is posted here.

The virus FIP in the macrophage now starts to make mountains of antibody and a protein(fibrin) that plugs up small capillaries and makes them leak. This is the classic phase of the disease very thick types of serum (protein,globulin,fibrin) in the abdomen. They almost look pregnant. Can happen in the chest as well. These cats all die. Called the wet form.

Then there is the dry form. Very high total protein and globulin. Sometimes this is all that is seen. These cats suffer from vascular failure in the various organs of the body. The dry form.


Wet form can be controlled using Quinine. Not cured--> CONTROLLED!!!. Once the quinine is discontinued the disease progresses to death.


The dry form which is what we saw in Calif most, is controlled with Atabrine. 50 mg per cat per day. We found that It in some way is causing the macrophages to stop doing what they do. These cats can recover to a cure. Personally have seen several. Both drugs do the same thing to the macrophage but one does it permanently and the other temporarily. Antimalarial drugs.

They seem to turn off the macrophages ability to manufacture fibrin.( I think) The dry form untreated also progresses to death. Can be fast or slow.

Biggest problem with either virus is diagnosis. Can tell if a cat has Corona but cannot tell if the virus is corona or FiP. Both have the same serologic test signature. Can be high l/16000 or low less than 1/400. This is usually the way the test comes back less than 1/400. Means not sick.

Now you can have a virus amplification done of the cells in the abdomen and verify the FIP or autopsy also can tell because all the organs in the abdomen are covered in Fibrin. A clotting material. That which plugs up the vessels etc. Nasty disease.

Basically what this means the animal's veins or pathways of blood get plugged up depriving the nutrients to sustain the main functions of the animal. This kind of disease is very difficult itself to stop but at least we found two verified methods that works.

Not a cytokine storm of sorts but a reverse process to stop the massive antibody buildup. What happens is the virus gets shield and the T response is rendered useless because the antibodies surrounds the virus setting up a wall. Again this is DNA coding of the virus that is able to control the antibodies to go against its main threat the T cell. The autoimmune system wants it gone but lost control of its own forces which sort of became a traitor to the system itself. Another way of saying the antibodies declared a mutiny of sorts.

In the case of Distemper, the virus itself causes the T cell response to destroy its own good cells and avoids the attack direct. Completely opposite of what FIPV does. The autoimmune system loses control of the T cell but controls the antibodies.

This is the best way I can put it. No one was able to control the T cell medically until I made that discovery myself.

In the case of a cat, it is controlling antibodies which is the problem and not T cell. Another description is the immune system of the cat went haywire caused by the virus building up its shields against the T -cell.

This is like going into a deep underground bunker and no shell can touch you because you got the earth to shield you and you got the bunker itself to shield you. Only way is a direct hit. Well the Antimalarial drugs Atabrine and quinine seem to stop the antibodies itself and gives the T cell response a chance to wipe out the virus. This is a slow normal body process and no push or major cytokine storm involved. The drug Atabrine and Quinine itself gives the push for T cell response itself.

Right now Dr. Sears and I are working on a safe range formula to cover most cats because of the weight of these cats vary tremendously.

You need a VET to make the determinations on the following in the meantime::: as follows>

Dx is almost impossible. Need to look at total protein and the level of globulin. It will be way out of range. Also PCR through a lab can identify the FIP virus. Looks almost identical to the Corona virus. So need to be careful. A lot of it is experience and a good guess????? This is what we are working on right now because guessing does not suffice regarding the Dx for a cat but on the other hand we can give some ball park figures for the VET on the Dx, to sort of get some idea, but the VET needs that test to look at the totals regarding the protein and globulin levels. From there he will know what the proper amounts will be needed pertaining to your particular cat, and its present condition.

This disease being almost identical to corona virus, it is very difficult to spot the difference. Equally so in making the determination between the wet version or dry version. The VET needs to go deep in the investigation to make the right diagnosis. If wrong, and given the wrong meds, need I say more for the poor cat.


The Dx for Atabrine depends on the totals regarding the protein and globulin levels. Every cat is different. So it will be hard for you to get the meds ahead of time for such cat because those levels are the ones that dictate the Dx for Atabrine. Understand. Now once you start on the Atabrine it will take about 21 of those pills to cure the cat in about 5 weeks. The meds itself gives the T response to wipe out the virus and also holds those antibodies at bay so the virus can be wiped out.

I hope this help you OK

Daveyo





Sound good.

Daveyo